IGIHE Kinyarwanda

{Nk’uko twari twabibasezeranyije, twagiranye ikiganiro na Prof Shyaka Anastase, Umuyobozi w’Ikigo cy’Igihugu cy’Imiyoborere (RGB).}

Muri iki kiganiro twibanze ku mikorere y’iki kigo umuntu yavuga ko kikiri gishya; twibanze kandi ku miyoborere myiza muri rusange aho yadutangarije ko biteye isoni kubona umuyobozi runaka akubita abaturage ayobora.

Muri iki kiganiro Prof Shyaka yasubije bimwe mu bibazo byabajijwe n’abasomyi ba IGIHE.com, ndetse anatwizeza kuzasubiza mu nyandiko bimwe mu bibazo byabajijwe atabashije gusubiza mu kiganiro twagiranye imbonankubone.

{{IGIHE.com: Mbere y’uko Ikigo cy’Igihugu gishinzwe imiyoborere gihindurirwa izina cyitwaga Urwego rw’igihugu Ngishwanama ku miyoborere, kuki iki kigo cyahinduriwe izina?}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Mu by’ukuri ntabwo ikigo cyahinduriwe izina, cyakora koko mbere hari ikindi kigo cyitwaga Urwego rw’gihugu Ngishwanama ku miyoborere mu Rwanda, akaba ari naho nakoraga, ubu icyabaye ni uguhuza icyo kigo n’izindi nzego zifite inshingano zijya gusa n’izo Urwego rw’gihugu Ngishwanama ku miyoborere rwari rufite.

Ibyo bigo bindi byahujwe n’icyo mwavugaga cyitwaga Urwego rw’gihugu Ngishwanama ku miyoborere, ariko hakaba n’ikigo cyari gishinzwe gukurikirana gahunda yo kwegereza ubushobozi n’ubuyobozi abaturage cyitwaga NDIS, hakaba na serivise zakoreraga muri Minisiteri y’Ubutegetsi bw’Igihugu, ariko hakaba n’ibintu bishya utabonaga aho wabishyira ubu byashyizwe muri iki Kigo cy’Igihugu gishinzwe imiyoborere; rero iki kigo nticyahinduye izina ahubwo cyaguye inshingano kuburyo ibintu byose bijyanye n’imiyoborere myiza umuntu azajya abihasanga.

{{IGIHE.com: Mukiyobora Urwego rw’gihugu Ngishwanama ku miyoborere hari imbogamizi mwaba mwarahuye nazo? Ni izihe?}}

Ngirango imbogamizi umuntu yavuga ni uko cyari ikigo gito gifite inshingano yo gukora ubushakashatsi ariko kidafite inshingano yo gukora uburyo ibivuye muri ubwo bushakashatsi byashyirwa mu bikorwa, ariko izo mbogamizi zizabonerwa ibisubizo muri ‘Rwanda Governance Board’.

{{IGIHE.com: Muri macye ni izihe nshingano z’ibanze z’iki kigo gishya nk’uko byabajijwe na SHYIRAMBERE Eulerie na Thierry?}}

{{Prof Shyaka: }} ‘Rwanda Governance Board’ ifite inshingano 10 mu itegeko riyishyiraho ariko umuntu abivuze mu magambo macye yabivuga muri ubu buryo:

RGB ifite inshingano yo guteza imbere imiyoborere myiza, gukurikirana no kugenzura uko inzego za leta n’izitari iza leta zishyira mu bikorwa ayo mahame, guteza imbere gahunda yo kwegereza ubuyobozi n’ubushobozi abaturage, gukora ubushakashatsi ku bintu byose bifitanye isano n’imiyoborere myiza, kureba uburyo inzego zitandukanye zaba iza leta cyangwa izitari iza leta ziha serivisi abaturage mu byiciro bitandukanye.

Izindi nshingano ebyiri nyamukuru ni uko dufite inshingano yo kwandika, guha ubuzima gatozi ndetse no gukurikirana ibikorwa by’imiryango itari iya leta ndetse na ya miryango bavuga ko ishamikiye ku madini, kahaza n’imikoranire n’izindi nzego zaba izo mu gihugu, mu karere ndetse no mu mahanga ya kure zifite inshingano zifitanye isano n’izacu kugirango twubake icyo umuntu yakita mu cyongereza ‘Networking na Partnership’.

{{IGIHE.com: Ni iki gishya iki kigo kizanye kitari gihari mu Rwanda?}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Ni byinshi cyane rwose, ikintu cya mbere gikomeye umuntu yavuga ni uko ibyo bintu byose bijyane n’uko serivise zikorwa no kugenzura serivise zihabwa abaturage kandi zifite gihamya bitari bifite urwego rubigenzura ariko hamwe na RGB bikaba bizakorwa; mu Rwanda hari inzego ziriho zigenzura kurwanya akarengaze, ruswa… ariko mu bijyanye no gutanga serivise nta rwego rwihariye umuntu yavuga ngo rwari ruhari.

Ikindi cyiza gihari ni uko hashyizwe ingufu mu guhuza ibikorwa byari bitatanye kuburyo guhuza ibikorwa bizoroha.

{{IGIHE.com: Imihini mishya itera amabavu, murabona iki kigo muhawe kuyobora muzakigeza aheza ndetse Abanyarwanda bakarushaho kubona imikorere myiza bahora bifuza?}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Nicyo nizera kandi nizo nama mbatezeho, umbazijije ikibazo uca umugani nanjye reka ngusubirishe umugani, baravuga ngo “Umutwe umwe ntiwigira inama wifasha gusagara”. Abanyarwanda nimuduha ibitekerezo cyane cyane nk’ahari ibibazo mukahatubwira tukahamenya, bizatworohereza akazi kandi icyo dushaka ni uko umusaruro wose Abanyarwanda bawubona. Icyo ntakibonye ntabwo nasinzira.

{{IGIHE.com: Mu minsi mike mu maze muyobora iki kigo gishya (RGB) hari imbogamizi mwari mwahura nazo?}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Buri gihe ikintu cyose kizana na ‘Challenges’ ntabwo wavuga ngo utangiye ikigo gishya ufite abakozi bashya cyangwa se nta nabo ufite ngo uvuge ngo ibintu byose birera de! Ariko ikigaragara ni uko nta mbogamizi mbona zambuza gutuma ntera imbere. Cyokora nk’ubu umbajije ngo ese ibyo ukeneye byose birahari, ntabwo nakubwira ngo birahari.

Ikindi navuga n’uko nta kazi katabamo imbogamizi zisanzwe cyangwa imbogamizi simusiga ariko icyiza ni uko nta za “simusiga” dufite. Gusa nzi ko Abanyarwanda biteze byinshi kuri iki kigo kikiri gishya. Ku bijyanye n’ibyo iki kigo kizabakorera ho navuga nti: “Ari jye n’abo tuzakorana tugomba gushyiramo intege kugirango umurava ugaragare”.

{{IGIHE.com: Iki kigo kizakorana gute na Minisiteri y’Ubutegetsi bw’Igihugu isanzwe ifite imiyoborere myiza mu nshingano?}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Burya hari ahantu ibigo biba bihuriye ariko icyo navuga ni uko RGB itandukanye na MINALOC.

RGB ni ikigo itegeko riha ‘Autonomie’ (ubwigenge) haba mu ngengo y’imari no mu miyoborere n’ubutavogerwa muri gahunda zacu, ariko Minisiteri n’ubundi nk’urwego ruri kuri ‘policy’ igumana inshingano zijyanye n’inzego z’ibanze n’imiyoborere myiza nka ‘policy’. Muri macye twebwe turi ikigo gifite inshingano gihabwa ariko MINALOC ni ‘line ministry’ yacu, mbese RGB ntabwo ari ishami (department) rya MINALOC cyokora hari serivise zimwe bakoraga zazakorerwa muri Rwanda Governance Board.

{{IGIHE.com: Ubundi se ko kuvuga ari ugutaruka mubona imiyoborere myiza imeze ite mu Rwanda?}}

{{Prof Shyaka: }} Iki kibazo nicyo dushaka kuzibandaho cyane, ngo abantu bavuga imiyoborere myiza ntibasobanukirwe icyo aricyo, baba abo mu Rwanda, muri Afurika cyangwa ahandi.

Hari uvuga ati: “Jyewe mu miyoborere myiza ngiye kwibanda ku bipimo byo kwegereza ubuyobozi abaturage”, undi ati “Ngiye kureba ibijyanye no kurwanya ruswa, undi akaza avuga ati “Ngiye kureba uburyo abaturage bisanzura cyangwa bagira uruhare mu bibakorerwa”; twebwe rero icyo twakoze n’uko imiyoborere myiza twayishyize mu bipimo, ni ukuvuga ngo niba tugiye gupima imiyoborere myiza mu Rwanda turifuza ko tuzajya tuyikorera ku bipimo bikajya biduha amanita.

Kuri icyo wari umbajije rero nakubwira ko ku bushakashatsi twakoze (twari tukiri Rwanda Governance Advisory Council) ibyavuyemo byabaye ntagereranywa ndetse turifuza ko ibyavuyemo tuzajya tubikomeza.

{{Uti ibipimo twagendeyeho rero ni ibihe?}}

Dufite ibipimo umunani birimo ubuyobozi bugendera ku mategeko, ubwisanzure muri politiki, uko abantu bagira uruhare mu buyobozi, umutekano n’umudendezo, uburyo Leta ishyira imbaraga mu kubaka ubushobozi bw’abantu, uburyo ruswa irwanywa hakubakwa gukorera mu mucyo, imitangire ya serivise no guteza imbere abikorera, ng’ibyo ibyo tugenderaho mu kugaragaza ibipimo by’imibereho myiza. Ariko aha nababwira ko ibyo bipimo 8 bifite udupimo 37, utu natwo tukagira utundi dupimopimo turenga 140.

Rero uko tubipima hano mu Rwanda bigaragaza ibipimo bine bigaragara mu ibara ry’icyatsi biri ku rwego rwiza, n’ubwo abantu bagomba gukomeza gushyiramo ingufu, ibindi bine nabyo bigaragaza ko biri hasi ndetse hasabwa kugira igikorwa ngo iyi miyoborere myiza igaragare.

Umutekano, uburyo leta ishyira imbaraga mu kwita ku Banyarwanda ari mu rwego rw’ubuzima, uburezi kubungabunga ibidukikije no gushyigikira abikorera usanga bishimishije ariko na none nk’iyo urebye imitangire ya serivise ku nzego zose twafashe usanga bikiri hasi cyane, bivuze ko hakiri umwanya wo kongeramo ingufu “room for improvement”.

Iki kibazo ngisubizije mu buryo burambuye, ariko mu nteruro imwe imiyoborere myiza ihagaze neza ariko hari aho usanga kahenewe kuminjirwamo agafu.

{{IGIHE.com: Mutinze kuri iki kibazo cy’imiyoborere myiza nibuka ko hashize iminsi havugwa abayobozi bakubita abaturage, ibi byo mubivuga ho iki nka RGB?}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Ni urukozasoni nta no kwirirwa ubitindaho. Icyo navuga ni iki, imiyoborere y’igihugu si iyo, gusa muziko baca umugani mu Kinyarwanda ngo “inda ibyara Mweru na Muhima”; nibyo koko hari igihe umuyobozi wo mu nzego z’ibanze akubita abaturage ariko iyo si politiki ya leta, ntabwo Leta iba yamutumye ngo abakubite ahubwo hari ingeso y’uburara igira itya ikaduka mu muntu ukumva ngo yakubise umuturage”.

Biragayitse cyane kubona umuyobozi akubita umuturage, kandi bikwiye gutangirwamo amasomo atuma bitazongera

{{IGIHE.com: Hari umusomyi wa IGIHE.com witwa Emmy Leon Nsabimana wababajije ikibazo kigira giti: “hari icyo mwabwira abayobozi bo mu nzego z’ibanze bakigisha abaturage gahunda za Leta ariko bagakoresha agahato”. Mwabwira iki uyu musomyi?}}

{{Prof Shyaka: }} Urukundo si agahato. Urukundo rurimo ubushake ariko rurimo n’igikundiro, gahunda za Leta rero zirimo igikundiro ntizikwiye guhatirwa abaturage, ahubwo icyo gikundiro nicyo gikwiye gusobanurirwa abaturage bakazikunda kubera ko zigomba gukundwa atari ukuvuga ngo hari umunyafu ubari ku mugongo.

Guhera no ku nzego zo hejuru nta muyobozi wumva ko agahato ari ngombwa, kugeza ubu Abanyarwanda bamaze gukura mu bitekerezo, bamaze kumva icyo imiyoborere myiza n’amajyambere bimaze kandi barafungutse kuburyo buhagije kuburyo nta wavuga ko hari resistance negative wavuga ko ari ikirundo umuntu agomba guhangana nacyo, ahubwo hakenewe kubibasobanurira bakumva ibyiza bibirimo noneho bakabijyamo babishaka.

{{IGIHE.com: Niba atari ibanga iki kigo cyanyu mugiye gifite cyangwa kizagira abakozi bangahe?}}

{{Prof Shyaka: }} Iki kigo gishya gifite abakozi basaga 70 ariko gifite n’imishinga irimo gukorera mu turere twose aha natanga urugero nk’urw’umushinga witwa JADF ufite abakozi bagera kuri 30 mu turere, ubwo rero iyo wongeyeho na ba bandi birumvikana ko basaga 100, ariko ikigo nyirizina gifite abakozi barenga 70 ho gato.

{{IGIHE.com: Ko abakozi benshi bakunze kwanga gukora mu bigo bya Leta bavuga ko bahembwa intica ntikize, ese ko mbona iki kigo muyoboye gifite inshingano nyinshi ndetse kikaba gikeneye abakozi beza ndetse bashoboye imishahara izaba imeze gute?}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Mu kigo cy’Igihugu gishinzwe imiyoborere ntabwo dutanga intica ntikize kuko ikintu cya mbere dutanga atari amafaranga kuko burya atajya agwira, ikintu cya mbere dusangira n’abu dufatanya ni umuhate (passion) w’aho dushaka kwerekeza, kuko burya ibitera umukozi umuneza si uko aba yahembwe menshi gusa, ahubwo harimo n’ibindi birimo environment imeze neza mu kazi, kuba ibyo ukora bifite ireme, ukumva nawe uranyuzwe ku mutima n’ubwo waba utahembwe ibya mirenge.

Ntabwo dufite ibya Mirenge kuko inka dukama murayizi ni leta kandi amafaranga yayo murayazi ntabwo ari menshi, ariko ntabwo nayita intica ntikize kuko mubo tumaze igihe dukorana ntawurapfa.

{{IGIHE.com: Umusomyi wa IGIHE.com witwa Sheja yakubajije ibibazo 3 agira ati: }}

{{1.}} Muri politiki ya Leta hari gahunda yo guhuriza ibigo hamwe bifite inshingano zigiye gusa. Ibi mbivuze mu kuko hari ibigo byatakariye mu bindi kandi byaribifite ingufu nyinshi cyane igihe byigengaga. (Nk’urugero rwa ORTPN Tenderboard) Ese iyo gahunda ubona itanga umusaruro? Niba ari yego kuki hari Minisiteri nka MINISPOC na MINIYOUTH byatandukanyijwe ariko ugasanga ibigo nka CNLG, NURC, ITORERO RY’IGIHUGU ntibishyizwe hamwe kandi ubona inshingano zabyo zidatandukanye cyane, Haba hari impamvu yihariye cyangwa kirazira bifite ? Aho ntibyaba ari uburyo bwo guha bamwe akazi?

{{2.}} Ukiri Umwarimu n’Umushakashatsi muri NUR, hari ibintu wemeraga kandi wiyumvagamo nk’intiti (intellectual), ese aho ugereye muri iyo mirimo usanga theories wigishaga za politike na pratique urimo uyu munsi bihuye ? wumva ukiri wa muntu wariwe icyo gihe ? Watubwira itandukanyirizo umaze kubona muriyo mirimo yombi ?

{{3.}} Ko mwayoboraga ikigo nkicyo mufite ubungubu cya RGAC, n’iki watubwira cyagezeho gifiteye akamaro igihugu kandi nawe wakwishimira

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Iki kibazo ni kirekire ariko ni cyiza cyane.

{{1. }} Ku cya mbere avuze nagirango musubize ko kuvugurura imikorere y’ibigo cyangwa inzego za leta ubwabyo ari ikintu cyiza cyane kuko iyo abantu batekereza ivugurura baba bashaka kunoza ibintu kurushaho. Cyokora uko ivugururwa rikorwa buri gihe ntabwo rishobora kunoga 100%, iyo ugize Imana ukabona 70% uba waraguje kandi si mu Rwanda gusa n’ahandi bibaho kuko burya ivugurura ryose rijyana n’ibinoga, hakaba n’ibishobora kuhajegerera. Ntabwo bitangaje ko ibigo byavangwa cyangwa byavangurwa ahubwo igikwiye kurebwa ni iki: “bitanga musaruro ki?”

Ku bijyanye na ORTPN, bivugwa ko byari kuba byiza igumye ukwayo ntiyinjire muri RDB ariko imibare igaragaza ko ubukerarugendo butera imbere kandi bwinjiza kurusha uko byari bimeze mbere.

Mu magambo macye Sheja namubwira ibintu bitatu nemera: kuba ivugururwa ubwaryo rikorwa ni ‘sawa’ ndetse no kuba ritekerezwa ni igipimo cyiza; icya kabiri navuga n’uko ntaho ivugururwa rijya riba 100% ‘sawa’ uretse no mu Rwanda no hanze ntabwo bibaho ikindi navuga n’uko ababishyira mu bikorwa ari abantu nkatwe mu bushobozi bwabo hari igishobora kubisoba, ariko iyo bigaragaye gutya haba kakwiye kuba ivugurura ry’ivugurura nta wundi muti utari uwo.

Ntudukwiye kandi kwitiranya ko bikorwa mu rwego rwo guha abantu akazi, ntiwafata Shyaka ngo umwitiranye na RGB kuko icyo gihe imiyoborere izaba yapfuye. Ntiwafata abantu ngo ubagereranye na institutions; ntitwari kugira urwego rw’umuvunyi kubera ko ari Tito Rutaremara ngo nahava turuvaneho turugire ikindi kintu.

{{2. }} Ikindi Sheja yabajije ni icy’aho nahoze n’aho ndi ubu. Nagirango mbwire abo twakoranye bose ko n’ibi ndimo nabyo ari ubushakashatsi kuri njye navuga ko bindyoheye kuko ibyo nshatse gukoramo ubushakashatsi ndabukora kandi noneho nkabona aho mbunyuza. Muri macye uko nari meze ntaho byagiye ahubwo navuga ko byagutse kandi ibyo nakoraga muri Kaminuza (kwigisha) ndacyabikora n’ubwo umwanya uba mucye.

{{3.}} Ku kibazo cya nyuma Sheja babajije cy’icyo nakuye mu kigo ngishwanama ku miyoborere ni uko twashyizeho bwa mbere mu mateka y’iki gihugu ndetse no mu mateka y’Afurika igipimo cy’imiyoborere myiza “Rwanda Governance Scorecard”. Iki gipimo ntitwe twagitekereje, twagisohoye umwaka ushize kandi nta handi kiri muri Afurika.

{{IGIHE.com: Undi witwa Popo yababajije ku bantu bashinga ibigo by’amashuri bagamije gukurikirana business iri mu burezi ugasanga barakama Abanyarwanda uko bishakiye! Ibyo mubivugaho iki?, akarengane, ikimenyane, icyenewabo, ivangura mu itangwa ry’akazi mu nzego za leta hari aho bihurira n’imiyoborere mushinzwe ?}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Birahahuriye rwose. Aho hantu harangwa ibyo bintu avuze haba mu mashuri, haba mu bigo bya leta cyangwa ibyigenga bikwiye guhinduka kuko Abanyarwanda aribo bazubaka imiyoborere myiza; iyi mico nta hantu nahamwe yemewe muri iki gihugu. Nasaba kandi abantu bose bafite amakuru nk’ayo kujya bayatugezaho kuko ntitwarandura ibintu nk’ibyo nta makuru dufite. Icya kabiri navuga n’uko burya amashuri akwiye kuba igitambo cy’ibyiza kuko niho umuntu yubakira umuco, ubumenyi, umuco mwiza n’ibindi, rero iyo umurezi we ntabyo afite byaba ari ukurushya abana tubabwira ngo nibabigire.

{{IGIHE.com: SHYIRAMBERE Eulerie yabajije ati: “Kwegereza abaturage ubushobozi umuntu yakumva ko bikoma ku ngengo y’imari ya leta, ariko kugeza ubu imirenge ntigira budget, uturere 30 tw’igihugu duhabwa 10% gusa y’ingengo y’imari y’igihugu, mwumva iyo shusho ihura n’intego yo kwegereza abaturage ubushobozi ? hateganywa iki ngo bihinduke ?”}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Ikibazo cye ni cyiza ariko afite amakuru ashaje kuko mu ngengo y’imari y’uyu mwaka amafaranga yahawe uturere yiyongereye akagera hagati ya 25% cyangwa 30% kuburyo kugeza ubu uturere hafi ya twose dusigaye dufite ingengo y’imari iruta iya za minisiteri kandi atariko byahoze. Ibyo avuga ngo imirenge ntigira Budget sibyo kuko budget yayo iba ku rwego rw’akarere.

Ku byo kwegereza ubayobozi n’ubushobozi abaturage nabyo byateye intambwe ishimishije kuko ubushakashatsi twakoze byagaragaye ko abaturage bagera kuri 90% serivisi bakenera bazisanga kuva ku rwego rw’umudugugu ukagera ku murenge, iyo rero ni intambwe ikomeye mu kwegereza ubuyobozi n’ubushobozi na serivise nziza abaturage.

{{IGIHE.com: Undi yagize ati: “Ese nta buryo intumwa za rubanda imitwe yombi, zajya zigaragaza work plan yazo kandi zikabonana n’ibyiciro binyuranye by’abanyagihugu, aho kwibanda mu biro gusa no kuba imbonekarimwe, kuko usanga bagarukira mu nzego z’uturere gusa, cyangwa bakegera abaturage ku minsi imwe n’imwe y’umuganda, ubundi bakazagaruka baje gushaka amajwi?}}

{{Prof Shyaka: }} Ndakivuga ku buryo bworoshye. Nzakibashyikiriza kugirango barebe uko bagikoraho, gusa amakuru mfite n’uko abadepite cyangwa abasenateri begera abaturage, ahubwo icyo umuntu yakibaza ni iki: “Ese bazegera abaturage bose kugera ku rwego rw’imidugudu yose?”. Nziko bajya bamanuka bakegera abaturage cyakora bagarukira ku Karere nk’uko abivuze najye byantangaza, ariko ubwo abaturage bakomeza kugaraza inyota yo kwegerwa n’abayobozi babo ni byiza ko babegera n’ubwo kuhagera hose bigoye.

{{IGIHE.com: Mbere y’uko dusoza iki kiganiro cya mbere tugiranye, kuko mwatwijeje kuzasubiza mu nyandiko ibibazo byose byabajijwe n’abasomyi ba IGIHE.com, mwagira icyo muvuga cy’agashinguracumu?}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Nagirango mbanze nshimire IGIHE.com yafashe umwanya ikaza kutuguganiriza. Mubaye aba mbere kuva ‘Rwanda Governance Board’ igiyeho, muduhuje n’Abanyarwanda muduhaye ibibazo byabo kandi twabishimye kuko byuzuyemo inama, ndetse ibyo tutashubije hano tuzabibagezaho mu nyandiko kandi uwanditse wese ahumure azasubizwa ikibazo cye.

Ikindi nabwira Abanyarwanda bose n’uko turi ku kwezi kw’imiyoborere myiza kandi tukaba twifuza abantu bose ko iki gikorwa bakigira icyabo ndetse n’inzego z’ubuyobozi kuva ku mudugudu kugera ku nzego zo hejuru bumva ndetse bakakira ibibazo by’abaturage bakabikemura.

Ahari inenge hajye hagaragazwa ndetse tuhashakire ibisubizo bikwiye kandi ntitukumve ko niba hamwe bakosheje n’abandi bose baba abanyamakosa, na none kandi tujye dushima ibyiza byagezweho.

Nshimiye cyane abantu bose baduhaye ibitekerezo.

{{IGIHE.com: Prof Shyaka Anastase murakoze cyane kuri uyu mwanya mwageneye IGIHE.com n’abasomyi by’umwihariko.}}

{{Prof Shyaka:}} Mwakoze cyane namwe kuduhuza n’Abanyarwanda.

{{Ruzindana RUGASA}}